Justin Case

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Started 4 months ago by Conny
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Conny
Member

on ATAD i just wrote this:
I have had too many occasions where saving something to give to someone else, to replace something that broke, got lost etc. has given me positive reinforcement. Making the decision as to when that is unlikely to happen is truly not easy for me.

I have probably learned this from my parents and others who raised me because they too learned that saving things payed off for them, growing up during the war, and shortly after, they noticed how it was a good thing to have additional items, trading (also on the black market) was socially acceptable and encouraged, tighter family structures meant they helped each other out. Saving money by asking around who had what to spare.
I know craiglists and second hand shops now take over that function in many cities.
and yet...
I am trying to remember how many times i have been able to help out friends, family, neighbors with the stuff i saved for "just in case". It probably averages to about 4-5 times a year for the past 20 years.
Today, just as i began to write this thread, i got a call from a nearby friend,namely, do i happen to have a spare (glass) coffee pot that fits under the coffee machine, because hers just broke.
(She has helped me out in similar ways) I did, and now i will add that to my ATAD tomorrow when she picks it up, but once again, positive reinforcement like this makes it hard for me to get rid of perfectly good things.

I have watched several hoarders programmes (on YouTube) and recognize that very same thinking pattern among several of the patients/clients. -We do not live like that- but we have too much stuff we do not use all the time. That's what brought me to this website.

Posted 4 months ago #
ninakk
Member

This is a great topic. Personally I think I'd save for other people only if they were my kids who would be moving out within the next few years or so. If the items were packed in boxes, those would still have to be stored and maintained; checked infrequently for possible animal attacks, water leakage somewhere and what not, as well as cleaned at some point.

While it was great to move out with a kitchen halfway set, I disliked very much having pots and pans that were not nesting properly, second-grade cutlery that would work but would be uncomfortable to use and so on, so in the end I think I wouldn't be where I am today should I then have had to think very well through what I actually wanted/needed and what it would mean to pay for it as well as maintain it properly. Frugality in this sense made my home, at least the kitchen, a second-grade place for a long time, and me being who I am, it didn't do me much good.

Posted 4 months ago #
clutterbug22
Member

@ Conny, I think that I have a similar situation in some ways, although not so much Justin case, as wanting the stuff i don't want to go to an appropriate recipient, which ends up in you keeping the unwanted junk longer than needed. That's partly why I asked the question on the 'Motivational Advice on Letting Go thread' to get myself a push to get stuff finally out of the door. There is some great advice there, especially regarding having faith that your unwanted stuff will end up with someone who will appreciate it and just releasing it out into the world. My mother is a quite a hoarder and similarly will save stuff for other people, eg kitchen roll inserts for one friend who makes Christmas crackers, bags and bags of carriers for the charty shop she volunteers for etc and I tell her that her house should not be a warehouse for other peoples stuff, after all, she is paying a mortgage for her living space. I did say that her friends would probably be mortified if they knew she was making her living areas a real mess on their behalf, coincindently, most of their homes are beautifully neat and tidy!

You did comment on that thread agreeing how valuable space is, so I think you already have that goal in your heart. Have a look at that thread again and see if any of the advice resonates with you and start getting rid of that stuff out of door! Someone will appreciate your items down at the charity shop and remember that your friends and family would not want you to be living in a cramped, untidy environment just so you could help them out 'just in case'!

Posted 4 months ago #
Katha
Member

The thing is: Out on the shelves of a charity shop, for many people to see, the coffee pot probably would have found someone missing exactly something like this as well - and faster.

You just would not have known about this and not have had the same positive reinforcement this way.

Perhaps the thought of the (statistically, probably greatly enhanced) potential of your stuff finding someone who needs or wants exactly this in a charity shop vs. in your storage will help you let go of some of it?

Posted 4 months ago #
Rosa
Member

There's a downside, too. If your friend called about the coffee pot and you said "yes, I have that and I know where it is, and it's easy to find and clean!" then you probably don't have a bad clutter problem. Some people might want less stuff in their home than you, but if it's not impeding you and it makes you happy, in my opinion it's not clutter.

I am not that organized. If I had an old extra coffee pot somewhere, when someone called I would think "I'm sure I have that somewhere, where did we put that?" and spend a morning going through the attic and basement looking for the dumb thing, with a good chance of finding it in a gross wet cardboard box (this happened with some of my canning jars - my partner took them off the shelf to look for something, in a year when we had a new baby and didn't do much canning, and the boxes got DISGUSTING by the time I was canning again 2 years later) or not finding it at all because it was in a poorly labeled box of dissimilar things.

And I have a friend who has an entire room of stuff, that she knows what/where it is, but the stacks are so high and deep it's a huge two-person project to get anything out of it.

For either of us, the extra coffee pot would be clutter even if we ended up having a great regifting experience with it later.

Posted 4 months ago #
Conny
Member

@ Katha, I have used that extra pot a few times a year in the past, mainly when it is my turn to host the "Kaffeerunde", when i needed to serve more than 6 people at a time. I guess i could have donated it earlier, and used the thermos, but since it fit in the cabinet, there it stayed.

But it is not just that coffee pot item, it is extra sewing material, cake tins, pans, implements, a tin full of buttons, towels, sheets, blankets (latter stored under the guest bed mattress), suitcases, bags, "coffee table" books, stationary articles and craft material galore and so on, so forth. Things that are stored away, not cluttering, but both me and my DH have a hard time giving away because it "might" be useful later. HIS reasoning has been, if it doesn't get used up by the time we die, it will get donated then anyway, why bother deciding now. He convinced me for years, i am not so sure that is sane after reading posts here and in other websites; moreover why burden those who survive us with that task?

Posted 4 months ago #
Katha
Member

@ Conny: If you used the coffee pot fairly regularly and had the space for it, it probably was not clutter before.

And if you are happy to store the other things (or at least they do not bother you), they are well-sorted, they do not spoil, you know what is there, you have no better use for the space, you are not overwhelmed with keeping it organized etc. - you probably do not need to unclutter.

In my own experience I just have found (I am at the beginning) that when I have less, I do enjoy the things I have more. When I had a box overflowing with candles, I never burnt any. Now I have one big candle going, two stored away and am actually enjoying the thought of getting to select which of the two in storage is going to be the candle out on display next - because the two that got to stay were my favorites.

Plus, I have a problem keeping things tidy and when I have less, it gets easier.

And I (and others on this board) can attest that it indeed is a burden on survivors (timewise and emotionally) to go through lots of accumulated things to figure out what to keep and what to give away. Moreover, there is a very real possibility for all of us that we will need to leave our chosen living spaces before our death without having planned to, be it for economic or health reasons.

But, all this said - if the stuff does not bother you where it is, if you have talked to those who probably will survive you and given them explicit permission to give the things away sight unseen should the time come - perhaps uncluttering is just not a necessity for you right now?

Or you can just start on a few things and see whether you like streamlining your possessions and drop it if it's not for you. Uncluttering is not a law, after all - this is just a forum for people who are trying it and they are overwhelmingly finding that they like the results, so responses will be skewed ;-)

Posted 4 months ago #
luxcat
Member

perhaps you could set yourself a limit on how much Justin Case stuff you let yourself keep on hand, say for example two boxes... then when you go to put something into it you can ask yourself "which might be more useful in the future? this extra coffee mug or that half set of silverware? is that extra bottle of shampoo going to expire soon?" and keep it coralled that way. anything that doesn't make the cut or fit in the box can go to the charity shop to fill someone else's needs.

Posted 4 months ago #
Northshore
Member

Conny, would you be able to give away a large number of items at one time? I think that women's shelters or the Red Cross might have clients who could use kitchen items or bedding. You would be helping someone in need and decluttering at the same time.
Another suggestion is to set some time limits on some of the items--for instance, the suitcases must go by the end of summer. I think your asking the question is a sign that you are getting ready to make a change.

Posted 4 months ago #
susanintexas
Member

The " when we die they can just toss it" logic doesn't really work, as you have noted. From my experience:

(1) My father was the classic "justin case" sort of guy. He had TWO garages, a full basement and a full attic -- plus a greenhouse and an outdoor storage shed -- and although everything was neat and tidy, it was a whole lot of stuff. It took my brother (who lived nearby -- I don't) SIX MONTHS to clean out the house, including renting TWO dumpsters to haul away useless stuff like the packing box for a 40-year-old microwave. That was six months of HIS time, plus a lot of frustration -- and six months before the house could be prepared to be put on the market. If you love your children, don't make them do this.

(2) My now 90-year-old MIL did fine until she gradually became too old to take care of everything on her own. She was edging towards hoarding -- shopping, then dropping the unopened bags in a spare room. They became infested with roaches. Collecting stuff (more than 150 ceramic dogs, for one) that never got dusted. Two years ago, when we finally figured out what was going on, it took ME a month, working 4-5 hours a day, just to get the house in a safe and sanitary condition (with a couple of weekends also thrown in by her children and grandchildren.) I now clean for her once a week. You might be able to cope now, but what about when you are older? We wonder -- what if she has to move in with us, or into a small assisted living apartment? We'd have to deal with it ALL then, probably at a time when we have a lot more on our minds and perhaps have to accomplish it all quickly.

(3) When my FIL died 13 years ago it was his widow -- the MIL -- who had to deal with all of his stuff (with the help of her two children.)

What I'm getting at is that's it's not faceless minions who have to deal with it when you're gone -- it's the people you love the most, who are already grieving, probably already overwhelmed with the day-to-day conduct of their own lives. It's hard enough to deal with the stuff that is needed and loved -- having to deal with the clutter is often too much.

Posted 4 months ago #
PJ
Member

Conny, it's such an interesting question that you've raised - what are the arguments BOTH for and against saving things Justin Case?

Part of your calculations could include how likely it is for things to get outdated or ruined while you're keeping them. Technology is an easy one - there are lots of posts on here about things kept justin case that no longer work or are outdated by the time people get around to purging them - computers, cables, etc. It might not be so obvious with a coffee pot, but when I think about my friends' kitchens, only a couple of them still have glass coffee pots. Thermal carafes and one cup machines are gaining ground (besides, as I have a long history of breaking coffee pots, I can tell you that not all pots fit all machines!) Cloth and other craft materials becomes dated, yellowed, and is vulnerable to insects or water damage. I remember someone on a crafty web forum I frequent lamenting that her fish tank sprung a leak and dripped down into the dresser that stored all her craft supplies, ruining it all. Then there is the risk of damage from flood, fire, earthquake, etc - there are lots of ways that things can go to waste while being stored justin case.

I also wonder where there is a social cost to you (or anyone) keeping all kinds of extra things. It sounds like you've got things pretty well stashed away, but yet people seem to know that you're the person to ask if they need a coffee pot, or, as you say, "extra sewing material, cake tins, pans, implements, a tin full of buttons, towels, sheets, blankets (latter stored under the guest bed mattress), suitcases, bags, "coffee table" books, stationary articles and craft material galore and so on." Now, I'm sure we've all borrowed things from people, but if just makes me wonder whether your friends/family see you as boy scout prepared, or as having a house full of stuff you don't need. I hope that makes sense and doesn't come across as insulting - I don't mean it that way, for sure. I guess I'm thinking of one particular friend who takes on too much responsibility for caring for other people - not in terms of possessions, but in lots of other ways - for her there is a needing to be needed that brings her to the point of almost being an enabler for some people in her life. It comes from a place of love in her heart, but isn't always a positive thing, if you know what I mean?

Anyway, those are a couple of thoughts that I had while reading this thread - in the interest of full disclosure, I'll admit that I also have an overstock of craft supplies, so am talking things through for myself as much as for you - craft area is definitely on my hit list for decluttering!

Posted 4 months ago #
ninakk
Member

To be frank and completely honest, there were days in the fall when I just hated my grandmother for the unwelcome gift of total chaos that she left for us to deal with. And then I felt awful for feeling such horrible things, which is when I vowed never ever to leave an unorganized home behind. I realise also that one person's hobby is someone else's clutter, so now I aim to keep like with like all over the place. Should I die in a few years will my loved ones be confronted with a legacy of stuff that won't take them weeks to deal with, but they may take neatly labelled boxes directly to donation without having to be scared they might throw money or jewellery out among the buttons and rickrack... If a label says bias tape then that will be the only thing in there and if none of them would want to sew then I won't hold a grudge. What I detested in grandma's decisions not to make any decisions at all was precisely that she forced us to deal with 500 tablecloths, some of which are in fact still undealt with; I'll sew beautiful napkins out of many of them one day. It is very arrogant to force decisions upon someone whose decisions they are not to make; I wish she would have dealt with her shit herself so that we had only furniture and proper stuff to go through. Hoarding is indeed a mental problem. This was my little yet still very fresh story which will not be closed in a long time yet, unfortunately.

Posted 4 months ago #
chacha1
Member

My personal line in the sand is, should I keep this just in case *I* need it? It is never, should I keep this just in case *someone I happen to know* might possibly need it?

A good friend has multiples of everything. She is constantly tripping over all the crap in her house. She is utterly unable to get rid of all the extras and often buys things she already has simply because she cannot SEE what she has.

Another good friend lives very minimally. She knows exactly where everything is, has only what she needs, and if she needed something might ask me (or another friend) but much more likely would just go buy what she needs.

Which one do you think lives a more peaceful and comfortable life?

I keep certain things because, while I might use them very seldom, I know I WILL use them. I don't keep certain things just on the off-chance that sometime down the road I will have some kind of mental fit and start doing things I've never done in the past 46 years. In 10 years of marriage we never used the wok, so the wok had to go, is all I'm saying. :-)

Conny, I agree with Northshore that just asking the question is a good sign that you may be ready to make a change, that you may be feeling all this stuff is not actually good insurance but rather a burden on you.

Posted 4 months ago #
Nina
Member

The problem for me is that there are so many "justin caseses" that you can end up keeping everything. While I understand that you enjoy giving someone something they need, might it also be that you are actually glad to get rid of the extra things you don't need and not feel guilty about it? After all, they need it. But if you think about it, if you give the things you don't need to charity NOW someone can use it NOW and you don't have to keep a bunch of things you don't need and nobody might use in 10 years. If I have something useful in my house that I don't need I prefer to give it away now so someone else can use it now. So I end up keeping only things I use/need/love now (not quite true - as what you use constantly changes so decluttering is an ongoing process, not a one time thing).

Posted 4 months ago #
rutheverhart
Member

There is a lot of wisdom in all of these responses. Household items which are indeed useful, are useful now, to someone. Let's get them to that person. Are our own friends more deserving of these items than some unnamed person elsewhere in our city? Chances are that our friends have the means to replace their own items when necessary. Let's send our stuff out into the world with love and trust it will help someone else somewhere. If our stuff doesn't fit that definition (someone somewhere won't love to get it) what the heck good is it? Why do we own it? Why was it manufactured in the first place and why do we possess it? I love that uncluttering helps me put two opposite dynamics (utility and magnanimity) together in one action.

Posted 4 months ago #
Sky
Member

ninakk....part of my reason for decluttering and having my house in order is so my sons never have to deal with a mess when I die. The other reason is, I don't want to deal with a mess while I'm here!!

Posted 4 months ago #
bandicoot
Member

conny, you are describing my parents!
they hang on to everything and when anyone needs an item and my parents can supply it, it gives them a buzz.
no matter that the item is usually old, obsolete, not quite right.
they really get a kick out of it. and my mother will tell me all about it, because it justifies the hoard
my mother collects everything for everyone. past and currently:
newspapers and bottles for the scouts (neither my brother or myself were scouts, but we spent many a summer weekend collecting and sorting).... stamps for a charity in thailand.... egg cartons for a neighbour who sells eggs... tin foil for another charity. and she ropes in everyone else to help. .. supermarket coupons for a friend... this is the tip of the iceberg.

of course, in my opinion it is utter insanity, but i don't have to live there.
everyone gets to choose.
what i choose for myself is the idea that there is an abundance in the universe of everything i could possibly need, and any time i need something, i can simply go out and buy it.
on the other hand, as i declutter and streamline, and really consider my consumption of resources, i find that i need less and less, when it all boils down to it.
i don't use my own home as a justincase depot... that is what shops are for.
and people don't ask me if i might happen to have random things they may require.

conny, i think it is a very interesting question.
asking such questions, and thinking about our stuff, and our relationship to it, is how we start to change.

Posted 4 months ago #
ninakk
Member

This thread is actually the essence of owning stuff. Why are we allowed to leave stuff behind when we die? Why can't it be translated back to currency somehow and just sort of deleted? Sounds like scifi but I asked myself more than once where the mindset stems from, which allows a person to leave stacks upon stacks of empty envelopes in between their bureaucracy paper contents instead of recycling them immediately like any normal person would? When did it become okay to just sit there and watch oneself get closer to death day by day without doing a friggin single thing to make the aftermath even a tiny bit easier for the relatives to deal with? Why is it acceptable instead of the norm being "we clean up after ourselves"? And why are people in general so scared of talking about death as if it is a morbid thing to do? In earlier times it was a normal and ever so present part of daily life and I'm of course not saying that we should go back to times without modern medicine, but good god, we all die, so why voluntarily create hell for those left behind when they should do nothing but grab a folder containing the vital information in a neat nutshell version and then get peace and quiet to grieve properly. Even young people, kids die, and you or I might die in a car crash tomorrow; it's not just the neighbour's son or wife who dies. And when we go we take nothing with us so so much for all the useful stuff. I'm not angry by the way, just amazed by how many live each day of their lives blindfolded and so scared they have to stick the head in the sand. I have days when I'm scared shitless just like everyone else, but before I was asleep and now I'm awake, finally, so it is less scary somehow.

Posted 4 months ago #
bandicoot
Member

ninakk, i just wanted to say to you that your periodic anger towards your grandmother was a perfectly natural and reasonable response.
you shouldn't feel horrible or guilty or anything else about it.
we all have mixed feelings about family members....that is life.
we aren't perfect and neither are they.....there are bound to be some rough bits.
the important thing is that you learned something....i can tell you that i learned from your experience, all the way over here!....and you move forward.

keeping an in-case-of-death file is a very intelligent and loving thing to do for your next of kin.
we got our wills sorted out FINALLY a year or so ago.....but now you are making me think of a more personal kind of file.

Posted 4 months ago #
ninakk
Member

well, in december i think i wrote a postcard to my family (to add to my shit-hit-the-fan folder, quite literally; they should be allowed to laugh at their crazy person who left the building before them) with instructions for what music i would want played at my funeral. i will write some kind of message to read there too or have in a written form for people to take home should they want that. i also will make a list of names who to invite to such an event, should i walk under a bus tomorrow. my life in denmark is a rather large question mark to my family, let alone my online life. i don't care about other fora but for this one i would want a message posted, because you people matter to me. sorry for going in a tangent but it all is intertwined. justin is everywhere.

Posted 4 months ago #

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